05/01/1998 03:32 PM House L&C

HB 388 - RIGHT TO REFUSE TO SERVE LIQUOR                                       
                                                                               
Number 0025                                                                    
                                                                               
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG announced the committee's next order of business             
was HB 388, "An Act relating to the right to refuse to sell, give,             
or serve an alcoholic beverage."                                               
                                                                               
Number 0051                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE FRED DYSON came forward as sponsor of HB 388.  He               
stated he has spent most of the last two years working on child                
protection issues.  Last summer he, Representative Reggie Joule and            
Commissioner Perdue [Department of Health and Social Services                  
(H&SS)] put together a statewide symposium on fetal alcohol                    
syndrome (FAS) and fetal alcohol effects (FAE).  He noted FAE is               
now called "alcohol-related neurological disorders," and has to do             
with prenatal poisoning of children.  He indicated this made him               
realize how pervasive this problem was in Alaska, particularly in              
some areas, noting there are some communities where the teachers               
estimate half the entering children are permanently mentally                   
retarded as a result of alcohol poisoning.  He said the corrections            
community believes half of Alaska inmates have alcohol-related                 
mental defects.  Representative Dyson said FAE is, by definition,              
not visible, but the kids almost always have problems reasoning                
from general principles to specific action, an inability to                    
empathize with others, and short attention spans.                              
                                                                               
Number 0108                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON noted this was almost the classic definition              
of sociopath.  He indicated all of this had made him interested in             
finding out what the legislature could do toward prevention,                   
indicating he thought some of the committee members had been there             
when legislation was passed requiring signs be posted in bars.  He             
mentioned there were labels "and so on."  Representative Dyson                 
stated he went "hat in hand" to ARBA CHAR (ph), the bar owners'                
association and the bar workers' professional union.  He said after            
these groups "got over thinking that I was the bald avenger who was            
gonna go out and destroy them," they came to at least three things             
they thought they could work together on.  He said first they are              
getting more material for these groups to use in their training,               
noting these groups said the question always came up in their                  
training of bar workers, "Can we refuse to serve someone who is                
obviously pregnant?"                                                           
                                                                               
Number 0145                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON indicated this was because the literature now             
says there is no known safe amount of alcohol for a pregnant woman             
to consume that is known to be safe for the unborn child, and the              
bar owners and workers are concerned.  He said some of them were               
concerned because they were afraid of liability, some of them                  
because they really cared about kids.  Representative Dyson                    
commented, "So we agreed on three things, ... we've gotten material            
and [the] Administration's working with them getting our material              
for their training; secondly, they're probably going to put quite              
a bit of money into helping kids with FAS and diagnostic equipment;            
and thirdly, they said that they're caught in a legal no man's                 
land.  Most of them say that they refuse to serve, as a matter of -            
of company policy, someone who is obviously pregnant, but they                 
believe that they're open to civil action, not having a clear                  
mandate that they can refuse to serve someone.  The law says that              
you can refuse to serve if you can believe they're going to be a               
danger to themself or others.  Our law since '73 doesn't clearly               
recognize unborn child as an other ... to be protected, and they               
believe they're on shaky ground."  He noted in Oregon bar owners               
had been sued for both refusing to serve a pregnant woman and not              
refusing to serve.  He said to the best of his knowledge neither               
lawsuit had been successfully prosecuted so far, but he indicated              
the people in the industry were afraid they were going to be sued              
on behalf of an advocate for a permanently retarded child, "in                 
light of our suit-happy world and 'dram' shop ... type laws and                
being held accountable for the actions of people who are served,"              
and so, he said, they ask for this.                                            
                                                                               
Number 0219                                                                    
                                                                               
Representative Dyson stated, "I met with them when they had their              
board of directors meetings here in February, and we talked about              
it, and it was absolutely universal acclaim at the table and - and             
so on.  When I got back to them a month ago, to Miss Whitehead (ph)            
... their director there in Anchorage, I said, 'Can you guys get me            
a letter,' and she said, 'Oh my goodness, we didn't realize you                
were gonna do what you said,' and she said, 'Until we get a board              
meeting, I can't give you a letter,' but she said, 'Far as I know,             
there's no trouble.'  So I can't tell that there's an official word            
from ARBA CHAR (ph) on this ....  That's the long and the short of             
it, I have not lined up people to testify ...."  He indicated he               
had been attending Senate committee meetings.                                  
                                                                               
Number 0254                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON said he assumed this provision only referred             
to those licensed to serve alcoholic beverages, not necessarily a              
liquor store, and asked Representative Dyson if that was correct.              
                                                                               
Number 0260                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said he would have to look in the code there,             
quoting, "Licensee, an agent or employee."  He indicated he thought            
it referred to a bar, not a package store.                                     
                                                                               
Number 0280                                                                    
                                                                               
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG indicated he thought it was going to be any                  
license, commenting it was in the general provisions.                          
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON asked, "Including a package store?"                      
                                                                               
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG replied, "Everybody."                                        
                                                                               
Number 0288                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE COWDERY indicated someone selling alcoholic                     
beverages at a package store would not know who was consuming those            
beverages.  He noted he believed someone could not consume in a                
package store.                                                                 
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON indicated Representative Cowdery was correct              
in that consumption in a package store was not permitted.                      
                                                                               
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG said, "You could carry it out."                              
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE COWDERY agreed, "But you could carry it out and give            
it to ....  I don't know, for whatever that's worth."                          
                                                                               
Number 0303                                                                    
                                                                               
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG said, "Chapter 20 ..."                                       
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE COWDERY asked Representative Dyson if bars were the             
main intention of the legislation.                                             
                                                                               
Number 0306                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON stated it was his intention to protect the bar            
owners from a civil suit because they choose to refuse to serve,               
under whatever circumstances they made that decision as a policy.              
He said that is what they have asked for.                                      
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE COWDERY commented he wanted to have that on the                 
record.                                                                        
                                                                               
Number 0319                                                                    
                                                                               
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG informed the committee this was in the general               
provisions section of Title 4, Chapter 21, which was followed by               
[AS] 04.21.065, "posting of warning signs, two separate warning                
signs and beverage dispensary license, restaurant or eating place              
license, pub license, brewery license, package store license,                  
common carrier dispensary license, ...."  He continued listing the             
licenses and quoted the warning sign requirements.  Chairman                   
Rokeberg commented that with the current statute and the way the               
bill was drafted, it applied to everybody, as the signs currently              
did.                                                                           
                                                                               
Number 0379                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE RYAN said he thought it was pretty good legislation             
and would be happy to move it along.                                           
                                                                               
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG commented, "I think it's kind of redundant                   
(indisc.) what the law says.  They already have signs saying they              
can do it, plus I think it'll give rise to law suits not otherwise.            
Because if you say that ... they have the right to refuse 'em --               
right now, ... 'cause it speaks to it, now it doesn't speak to it."            
                                                                               
Number 0395                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE RYAN reminded the chairman, "Mark Twain said,                   
'Difference of opinion is what makes horse races.'"                            
                                                                               
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG agreed that was very true.                                   
                                                                               
Number 0405                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON quoted the required sign wording, "Warning,               
drinking alcoholic beverages such a beer or wine, wine coolers and             
distilled spirits or smoking cigarettes during pregnancy can cause             
birth defects."  He quoted the (indisc.) one, "Surgeon's warning:              
smoking by pregnant women may result in fetal injury, premature                
birth, low birth weight."                                                      
                                                                               
Number 0424                                                                    
                                                                               
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG stated he would prefer to something in the file              
from CHAR (ph) and "some other folks."  He indicated going on                  
hearsay made him a little uncomfortable, noting it was not that he             
did not believe the bill sponsor.  Chairman Rokeberg said he would             
prefer to hold the legislation until the committee received                    
something, mentioning Ms. Whitehead (ph).  He said the committee               
had been trying to get a hold of those people to verify that.                  
                                                                               
Number 0446                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON noted time was short and he guessed the                   
legislation would not make it all the way through the process,                 
although he said he would like to see it continue, noting there was            
a small chance.  He indicated he did not think waiting for the                 
documentation the chairman requested would make a material                     
difference.                                                                    
                                                                               
Number 0462                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE COWDERY stated it was his understanding all HB 388              
did was give some latitude to someone serving [alcoholic beverages]            
to make certain that the server is within the law.  He indicated he            
thought that was all the sponsor was trying to achieve.                        
                                                                               
Number 0476                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON agreed.  He related, "Interestingly enough ...            
I went over and visited with my good friends at the ACLU [American             
Civil Liberties Union] and ... they spent 2 1/2 months trying to               
decide whether they were upset by this or not, and finally decided             
they couldn't figure that out, and think it's fine, which is [the]             
first time they've agreed with me in a long time."                             
                                                                               
Number 0493                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE RYAN commented it was good legislation.                         
                                                                               
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked the will of the committee.                             
                                                                               
Number 0498                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE COWDERY said he would like to make motion to move               
the legislation along, commenting that hopefully the sponsor would             
follow and get answers to the committee's concerns.                            
                                                                               
Number 0507                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE COWDERY made a motion to move HB 388 with individual            
recommendations and accompanying zero fiscal note.  There being no             
objections, HB 388 was moved out of the House Labor and Commerce               
Standing Committee.                                                            
                                                                               
Number 0520                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON indicated he would withdraw the legislation if            
ARBA CHAR (ph) was not in favor of it.